[Ed. Note: The following interview with south Korean President Kim Dae-jung was conducted by Nick Gowing on the BBC television programme HARDtalk in Oslo, Norway, on International Human Rights Day-Dec. 10, 2000-the day that Kim received the Nobel Peace Prize for his ‘Sunshine Policy’ to end 50 years of hostility between north and south Korea and to reunify the Korean nation.]

BBC: How much do you consider the breaking of the political ice with north Korea, the effective ending of the 50-year war, as the pinnacle really of 40 years of political work of defiance as a political dissident?

President Kim: The goal of my life is to realise democracy in my country, to realise peace between south and north Korea, so that the Korean people can live in peace. Democracy has been realised in south Korea, inter-Korean dialogue has begun for peace, and so I am satisfied with the progress so far.

BBC: Given your great ambitions for Korea, what did it feel like walking out of your aircraft in Pyongyang last June?

President Kim: Going to Pyongyang, though I went without any agreement with north Korea, we hadn’t even agreed on what to talk about so the preparations were not complete. We requested that agreements be made, but they didn’t agree to it so I went with a great deal of concern. On the one hand, at the age of well over 70, that I was able to visit the northern side of my own homeland was a great delight. I was really excited. I felt like kneeling down and kissing the earth when I got off the plane.

BBC: Was it really a moment of deep emotion for you?

President Kim: Yes, of course. I was not sure that Chairman Kim Jong-il would come and meet me at the airport so, to see him waiting for me, I was impressed.

BBC: What kind of risk did you think you were taking politically and for yourself without knowing, without having all of the preparation work done, with the north Korean leader?

President Kim: For the first time in 50 years, the fact that we were meeting at all was in itself a success. We’ve lived as enemies-guns aimed at each other for 50 years. To go and meet the north Korean leader-that in itself has to be deemed a success. That was my bottom line: to be able to talk with an open mind and an open heart, to get the discussion going. We may not be able to agree on all the issues; but just to have him hear my voice and me to hear his voice, that in itself would be significant.

BBC: Did you feel that you understood how they were thinking, how Mr. Kim was thinking? Did you get inside his mind?

President Kim: Chairman Kim Jong-il and I spent nine hours together talking. There were many difficult moments, critical moments, but I told him that we must speak our minds-all that is on our minds. If we agree on things, that’s good; but even if we don’t agree, it’s worth the effort to discover what is on each other’s mind. Luckily, the chairman opened up. He well understood what I said. He is very bright. When he understood what I said, he accepted it. Therefore, we were able to produce significant results.

BBC: Mr. President, how much did you fear that you were about to enter a trap, had entered a trap, or that you might even have been double-crossed?

President Kim: I admit, there were moments, but the bottom line was that the meeting itself was significant. In north Korea, Kim Jong-il makes all the decisions so the fact that he was seeing me in person, that we were having discussions face to face, was significant. Therefore, I could take the risk.

BBC: How much did you feel really that you were doing what Kim Jong-il really wanted? Unlike East Germany, this was about assuring the legitimacy, the sovereignty and the survival of north Korea by both the South and the United States.

President Kim: I told the chairman there must never be another war on the Korean Peninsula. Another war would mean the end of the Korean people. North Korea should not think about communising the South, and we [the South] will not think about absorbing the North. Good South-North relations are not sufficient. North Korea must try and improve relations with the United States. That would be in their own national interest for security reasons, for economic assistance. South Korea has good relations with the U.S., with Japan, as well as with China and Russia. By the same token, north Korea should try to cooperate with them. To this, the chairman was very positive.

BBC: But in your checklist before you arrived in Pyongyang, was the issue of unification anywhere?

President Kim: To the chairman, I said unification is not for now. I have to be honest: we are not able to look after north Korea economically. Even if the economic problems were solved, the 50 years of distrust and enmity and hostility could not be overcome in a day. Look at Germany. Even there, you have a great deal of psychological conflict. The situation will be worse for the Korean people so, for now, peaceful co-existence, peaceful exchange, is the task. After 20 or 30 years of this, when both sides feel safe enough, then we should seek unification. Meanwhile, we will not seek the absorption of north Korea. The chairman agreed.

BBC: You described how there were four or five critical moments when it could have actually failed or at least there was no obvious way forward. How often in those times in Pyongyang did you face political disaster in the face?

President Kim: My political life was not my primary concern. I was concerned with the content of the dialogue, for example, our discussion concerning the unification formula-their contention of a federation, our concerns about a federation-their insistence on self-determination, on attacking us, saying we were a subsidiary of the United States. To this, I spoke my mind. For example, I said, ‘You say we are a puppet of the U.S. As you know, I came to north Korea; I came to Pyongyang through my discussions with you, not at the behest of the United States. Why is this not self-determination? Why is this being a puppet of the United States? I have for many years advocated my Sunshine Policy. President Clinton supported this. He didn’t tell me to push my Sunshine Policy. Why call us a dependent of the U.S.? I tried very hard to persuade the chairman, and he understood.’

BBC: Now you have a very thorough intelligence agency, so do the Americans and so do the other big nations as well. The person you met seemed to be very different in many ways to the kind of person portrayed, not least of all by your own intelligence services. Were you astonished by this?

President Kim: In the past, our perception of Kim Jong-il, the information that we had through the intelligence agencies-I discovered a lot of that was not accurate. We had a lot of negative impressions about the chairman; but when I met him in person, I could see he had a good mind. He was polite. He tried to listen. On this point, Secretary Albright had the same impression. She came away with the same impression I did.

BBC: And you were therefore surprised by the man you met?

President Kim: Yes, the information that we had was rather off the mark.

BBC: Do you have any feeling then, given that your information was wrong, much could now go into reverse? You talked about two trains leaving stations moving towards each other. Do you fear that these trains you were talking about, political trains, could crash at some point?

President Kim [smiling]: We must always be careful so that such a crash is prevented. After coming back from north Korea, we have been promoting the dialogue on two tracks. The fact that we’ve had this long discussion face to face, which has led to the building of trust between their leader and myself, and the agreement that there must never be another war-that is a very significant agreement. For the last 50 years, north Korea has continued to call for the withdrawal of the Americans from the Korean Peninsula; but after the summit discussions during which I emphasised the existence of the four powers surrounding the Korean Peninsula, given that context, the American troops must stay for the peace and stability of the peninsula as well as of North Asia. The chairman in the end agreed, and this agreement is a very significant development for peace.

BBC: But you’ll understand my concern, or at least a degree of scepticism, because sitting in similar chairs two years ago were the two main leaders of Northern Ireland, here a few years ago were the two leaders of the Middle East, and look at the problems they have faced. In other words, do you fear that this process might still be reversible?

President Kim: We stand guard against such a possibility. The dialogue for peace has just begun. The defence ministers from both sides have met. They came out with a joint statement saying that they will never resort to military aggression against each other, and the specific measures to support this agreement will have to be further promoted. Also, our view is that there must be better relations between north Korea and the United States. I repeat: the peace process has just begun.

BBC: After the family reunions, the railway projects and talks and building the relationships, what more must be done now to build confidence? You only have two more years left in power. Do you fear that this process could go backward after you leave power?

President Kim: We must try not to let that happen. Two years is a long time. We are advancing the dialogue along two tracks with north Korea. One is tension reduction with north Korea so that the process can further build peace on the Korean Peninsula. A part of that would be to encourage north Korea and the U.S. in their missile negotiations towards the normalisation of ties between the two sides. The second track is to expand exchanges and cooperation between south and north Korea on the family reunion issues, on economic cooperation, on social and cultural exchanges. These exchanges are progressing smoothly. Both sides have initiated agreements for expanded economic cooperation, such as investment guarantees and the avoidance of double taxation, so we must have hope.

BBC: Mr. President, here you are one of the select group of former political prisoners, like Mandela, Havel, Walesa, and you became president. You came a long way from where you were brought up on a farm in a small town, working on a newspaper and a shipping company. What drew that political determination to risk, challenging often brutal military rule, especially after 1961?

President Kim: Human beings-you only live once. You have to live by your conscience. You have to be worthy of that conscience, worthy of being a human being. That has to be the value of life. Such a human being is appreciated and recognised by history. Democracy for the Korean people, the reconciliation of the Korean people, was my goal in life.

BBC: But they were determined to silence you. They jailed you; they put you under house arrest I think 51 times. Did you ever say, I can’t take anymore of this?

President Kim: Well, it wasn’t easy, and there was a great deal of pain. But, as I’ve already said, you must live a worthy life. It’s not important what you become, but how you live. Conscience in action-everybody has a conscience, and you must live by it. Conscience in action has always been my motivation in life. Of course, there were times of great fear and great difficulties, but I kept on going.

BBC: Describe that fear, particularly in Japan in 1973 when you were in exile in Japan and the secret police from south Korea came there and actually kidnapped you. What happened when you were taken back to south Korea?

President Kim: They tied me up, blindfolded me, stuffed my mouth and were ready to throw me overboard to my death. At that very moment, in my mind, Jesus Christ appeared so I clung to him, and I said, ‘Please save me.’ And at that moment, the agents that surrounded me shouted, ‘Airplane, airplane!’ And that airplane was a plane that had come to save me. Therefore, I could live. But, at the time, I was sure that I was going to die.

BBC: Did you discover why the Americans or how the Americans knew where you were and why they did that?

President Kim: Of course, at that time, I did not know, but afterwards, perhaps 10 years afterwards, the U.S. intelligence people who were stationed in Korea at the time told me the story later on.

BBC: But why did they do it?

President Kim: The United States was very much against terrorism at the time, and the United States also knew that I was fighting for democracy in Korea and that I was supported by the Korean people so they intervened and saved me.

BBC: Yet in May 1980 during the Kwangju riots in which more than 200 people were killed, you were accused of political agitation; you were imprisoned and sentenced to death. How close to death because of your political activity do you believe you came on that occasion?

President Kim: At the time, again, I was sure death was facing me. The military authorities were very determined to kill me. They told me: ‘Cooperate, and you will live. If not, you will die.’ Of course, I was afraid to die, and I thought about it a great deal. If I cooperated with them, I would die an eternal death; but if I stuck to my principles, I would live forever in history; I would live in the hearts of my people. If I gave in, all those who supported me would be so disappointed; my family would be shamed. In the end, I could not cooperate.

BBC: Mr. President, you talked several times about the importance of God in your life, of praying to God for deliverance when you were on that boat off Japan. How important has that God been?

President Kim: My belief in God-after returning from that incident, the kidnapping incident, I came back home and met with a newspaper and told them the story about Jesus Christ appearing to me. And at that time, Jesus Christ appeared, and I didn’t even pray at the time-he just suddenly appeared. Therefore, I had to think that God had protected me.

BBC: You are a devout Catholic. You have, some say, the remarkable ability to forgive those who tormented and persecuted you. Why did you pardon President Chun Doo-hwan?

President Kim: I did not forgive President Chun Doo-hwan’s sins as a dictator, but I forgave the person, and that’s the teaching of Jesus Christ.

BBC: But he sentenced you to death!

President Kim: Yes, but through my forgiving him and reconciling with him, I am happy. I am satisfied with my relationship with the former president. But his actions, the military rule-I have not forgiven that. I still say that that was wrong.

BBC: Why build a monument for President Park [Chung-hee] who three times tried to kill you?

President Kim: That too is not something that I took the initiative to build. It came from his supporters, and I simply agreed. That is also an act of conciliation. His memorial would be a testimony, not just to what he did that was good, but also to his mistakes.

BBC: And here you have the most remarkable situation surely of Kim Jong-pil, former head of intelligence, architect of the 1961 coup, who is really your political enemy. You are now essentially in coalition with him.

President Kim: Mr. Kim Jong-pil and I-Yes, there is that past; but in politics, there were points when we both cooperated as opposition leaders. In the last presidential election, I would not have become president without the cooperation of his party; and to realise the kind of democracy that I wanted, to promote inter-Korean relations in the way that I wanted, Mr. Kim Jong-pil has been very cooperative and supportive so my relationship with him I do not regret.

BBC: In defiance of many Asian traditions, you are a passionate advocate of the universality of human rights. The Nobel Committee has distinctly said that and has praised your great moral strength. Yet there are still two laws in your country which mean there are still political prisoners under your presidency.

President Kim: Political prisoners? Yes, there are people who are jailed for resorting to violence. Political prisoners-a very few. The rest have been released, have been reinstated. We have even returned north Korean agents that have not converted. In all democracies, you have to deal with people who violate the law. You have to punish them.

BBC: Have you had to compromise on your standards of human rights in your own country?

President Kim: It is not compromise. To my people, to the workers, I allow full freedom to demonstrate and the right to assembly. I’ve legalised all labour unions, including the teachers’ union that had been illegal for 10 years, so you cannot say that this is repression.

BBC: President Kim Dae-jung of south Korea, thank you very much for joining us here on HARDtalk.